Sunday, October 31, 2004

Greed

People as a whole are greedy of one thing or another,they just do not see it.Yes we all know about the ones who want money or possessions,but what about the ones that want your time,or the ones that are greedy for praise or attention.These are the ones that are the worst ,the people that do not let you have time to yourself or just get in the way of life itself.Like the guy the is telling you about his whole life story while you just want to grab a soda and leave.You do not want to be rude,yet you have to go and then you are put in a awkward sate.As social beings we are limited to what is acceptable behavior,like we are not supposed to yell at the guy "YOU JUST WASTED 10 MINUTES OF MY LIFE YOU F***ING IDIOT!!!FOR THAT YOU WILL PAY!!!"That seems to be the wrong way to handel the situation.So is shooting him in the foot and running away laughing.But sometimes it just seems like the right thing to do go figure. Like here is another one that happened just last night: A guy was beating himself up by trying to make me bend to his rules about a subject and in his own experiences it was correct,but it has now changed and that is what I was going by.I looked at this guy and thought "Wow so this is what a person looks like when they cannot see outside the box.What a shame."As most of the council already knows I think outside the box as far as I can while still seeing the box.I try to be as impartial as I can,on most subjects I will be right down the middle.But when I have made a decision on something I stick with it for as long as it is still right to me.I just realized that this is the longest blog I have done in a long time.And here I usually try to keep it short and to the point,damnit I guess that I will just have to make the next blog that I do just that much shorter.
Well thank you for your time and have a pleasant day or F*** off the choice is yours,and yours alone.

Saturday, October 30, 2004

Here is how we rate:

I was bored so I looked up the amount of blogs from the very first until now and here is the list :

1- the undisputed Post Master is Steve aka Quill with 59 posts

2-second place goes to Deadpool with 29 posts

3-third place by a hair is The Voice with 22 posts

4-forth place is held by Pheonix with 21 posts

5-fifth place including this post goes to Shark with a lucky number of 13 posts

6-sixth place goes to K with 8 posts

7-seventh place goes to Dante with 6 posts

8-eighth place is a three way tie:Angel69,Francesa,and Cheri with 4 posts each

9-ninth place is co-opted by Scott and Hizzy with 2 posts each

10-and the final spot goes to Beaver and triponXTC with a whopping 1 post under their belts

that is a total of 176 posts plus 3 drafts(drafts were not included in the count for ranking)
for a grand total of 179 blogs to the site to date

Friday, October 29, 2004

...Quill's one political post for 10/29/04; Bushisms - pt 4...

As requested, and as promised, I am now limited to ONE political post per day. If I feel the need to post more than one topic, I am required to attach it to the end of the first post, and so on. These are the rules that Admin Shark put forth, and I am more than happy to oblige. This is the Quill political post for October 29th, 2004.

(Note: Due to the fact that I am required to post articles back to back, this is, unavoidably, a long post. However, those WERE the rules put forth to me, and I am pointing out now that I am now following them to the letter exactly, so there are no questions.)

Here are the individual links for the articles/news bits available this post:

  • Kerry Uses Bush’s Own Words to Call Him Unfit

  • John Kerry: The Rolling Stone Interview

  • Molly Ivins: ‘Clueless People Love Bush’

  • Déjà vu in Florida


  • ‘Bushisms – pt 4’ is also located in this post, before the Déjà vu article.

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  • Kerry Uses Bush’s Own Words to Call Him Unfit


  • Kerry Uses Bush's Own Words to Call Him Unfit

    By Patricia Wilson

    TOLEDO, Ohio (Reuters) - Democratic challenger John Kerry (news - web sites) turned President Bush (news - web sites)'s own words into a weapon on Thursday and said it was the Republican incumbent who had jumped to conclusions in Iraq (news - web sites), disqualifying him from being commander in chief.

    The Massachusetts senator, energized by his beloved Boston Red Sox's long-awaited win in baseball's World Series (news - web sites) and a joint appearance with rocker Bruce Springsteen, launched a withering attack on Bush over 380 tons of missing explosives in Iraq and chided his rival for invoking the memory of President John Kennedy.

    Kerry said the weapons were not "where they were supposed to be, you were warned to guard them, you didn't guard them. They're not secure, and, guess what, according to George Bush (news - web sites)'s own words, he shouldn't be our commander in chief and I couldn't agree more."

    With Tuesday's election deadlocked, Kerry took aim at the president's perceived strength -- national security -- and hammered him for a fourth consecutive day on the missing explosives.

    Bush on Wednesday accused Kerry of opportunism, saying: "A political candidate who jumps to conclusions without knowing the facts is not a person you want as commander in chief ... that is part of a pattern of a candidate who will say anything to get elected."

    Kerry threw the words back at the president 24 hours later, announcing he was going "to apply the Bush standard" and declaring: "Mr. President, I agree with you."

    "George Bush jumped to conclusions about 9/11 and Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)," he said. "George Bush jumped to conclusions about weapons of mass destruction and he rushed to war without a plan for the peace. George Bush jumped to conclusions about how the Iraqi people would receive our troops. He not only jumped to conclusions, he ignored the facts he was given."

    KENNEDY INVOKED

    Almost drowned out by a thunderous wave of foot stomping from thousands of supporters packed into a University of Toledo arena, Kerry added: "I hope George Bush can hear that. That is the rumble of change coming at him."

    Kerry recalled how President John Kennedy took the blame for the bungled Bay of Pigs operation in Cuba in 1961.

    "Can you imagine President Kennedy ... standing up and telling the American people he couldn't think of a single mistake that he had made? When the Bay of Pigs went sour, John Kennedy had the courage to look America in the eye and say to America 'I take responsibility, it is my fault."'

    Challenging Bush, Kerry said: "Mr. President, it is long since time for you to start taking responsibility for the mistakes that you've made."

    Wearing a Red Sox cap and reveling in the team's World Series championship after an 86-year drought, Kerry saw a metaphor for his own White House bid.

    "About a year ago, when things weren't going so well in my campaign, somebody called a radio talk show and they said, thinking they were just cutting me right to the quick, they said 'John Kerry won't be the president until the Red Sox win.' Well, we're on our way."

    (Found @ http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20041028/pl_nm/campaign_kerry_dc_70)

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  • John Kerry: The Rolling Stone Interview


  • John Kerry: The Rolling Stone Interview
    By Jann S. Wenner
    Rolling Stone Magazine

    For two days in October, the John Kerry campaign came to a brief stop at a hotel and conference center on the high-plains sprawl of suburban Denver, where the candidate holed up with his staff and prepared for his second debate with George Bush. While the traveling press idled over endless buffets in one of the hotel dining rooms, Kerry and his closest advisers sequestered themselves behind closed doors, getting ready for the next night's crucial events.

    The morning's calm was broken when Kerry's press advisers began circulating word that the candidate would soon be making a statement about the war in Iraq, a canny move to seize control of the day's news cycle, which was already full of bad news for President Bush: A government-commissioned report had concluded that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction; Paul Bremer, until recently his chief administrator in Iraq, had been quoted as saying that the U.S. invasion of Iraq had been done with too few troops; and Donald Rumsfeld had conceded that there was no connection between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. The press was herded out to a field in front of the hotel, chosen for its view of the mountains in the distance. When Kerry emerged, he was wearing his presidential blue suit, and with little fanfare or preamble he ripped into Bush with icy efficiency, saying how in light of the morning's news it was now clear that George Bush and Dick Cheney "may well be the last two people on the planet who won't face the truth about Iraq." After some questions from reporters, he disappeared, projecting the attitude that he had more important things to do.

    A few minutes later, we were ushered up to Kerry's suite, where the candidate was tucking into a huge lunch. Gone was the crisp blue suit. He'd changed into khakis and running shoes and had dropped the formal manner. By the door stood a battered guitar case. Through an open door, one could see a framed picture of his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, on a bedside table. For the hour that we spoke with Kerry, he was conversational and forthright, relaxed but clearly wearing his game face.

    You were tough out there today.

    Well, I should be tough on him. This is an amazing moment in American history - where a president of the United States is finding the rationale for invading another country after the fact.

    The president has now given twenty-four reasons for going to war. Why do you think we really invaded Iraq?

    Well, I think you've heard all the reasons. I can't psychoanalyze them. They were driven by ideology; they were driven by a fixation on Saddam Hussein. They took their eye off of Osama bin Laden and the real war on terror, and the consequences for our country are gigantic: $200 billion, and counting; the loss of credibility and prestige in the world; the loss of alliances that we need to be helping us. The American people are paying a very, very bitter price for their bad judgment - no matter what the cause is.

    Did you walk out of the first debate with the sense that you'd won?

    You can't ever tell. We're the last people to ask - the people on the stage. It's always tricky how people see it on TV. But I felt good, like I'd done the things I came to do, and I felt confident about the message.

    How do you assess Bush's performance?

    You don't have time to do that. I was listening very carefully and focusing on what I wanted to share with America, and it's a pretty intensive process of focusing.

    The Bush administration says it's a certainty there will be more terrorist attacks. Is this a scare tactic?

    They are privy to more intelligence and more analysis than I am. But I have had briefings, and I am deeply concerned about the potential of another attack. I think there's much more we can and should do to protect ourselves.

    What has Bush failed to do to protect us?

    The list of things undone by this president to make America safer is staggering. The 9/11 Commission report contains a full list of what a creative, proactive leadership should have done by itself - rather than resist the 9/11 Commission, as they did.

    On homeland security they've talked a good game, and not implemented or acted. Ninety-five percent of the containers that come into our country don't get inspected. Bridges and tunnels don't have the security and escape routes that ought to have been put in place. On planes, the baggage is X-rayed but not the cargo holds. It's absurd. Firehouses are understaffed. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America - not added.

    There are chemical, biological and nuclear plants around the country that don't have the protection that they ought to. The president actually gave in to the chemical industry and folded, instead of doing what was necessary for some of the chemical-plant protection.

    Now, can any president guarantee the absence of any attack? The answer is no. I mean, if someone wants to blow themselves up, they can pretty much find a way to do it and hurt somebody. The question is: Are you doing all that's possible to protect against the greatest catastrophe? And there this administration has clearly failed.

    Why do you think they've dropped the ball on this issue?

    I think Senator Richard Lugar summed it up. He said their administration of the reconstruction funds has been incompetent, and I think their administration of the Homeland Security department has been incompetent.

    What do you think of the color-coded terror alerts the Department of Homeland Security issues?

    I think Americans, sadly, laugh at it. They don't know what to do.

    Will you continue that program?

    No. I'm going to find some more thoughtful way of alerting America. If we have to alert America, I think the most important thing to do is alert law enforcement more effectively across the country. Law enforcement doesn't have even a single, unified watch list yet. They still have separate watch lists, with different names and different people. This is the single, simplest, most important thing the Department of Homeland Security was supposed to do, and they haven't done it.

    Doesn't it seem the threat level gets raised at key moments during the campaign?

    Yeah. But you know what? I'm not going to question motivations that I can't . . .

    Who's the enemy in the "War on Terror"?

    Americans should have no doubts that there is a real enemy out there, one who wants to wreak destruction. And that enemy is a conglomeration of Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and radical, extreme - mostly Muslim - fundamentalist groups that want to create a radical Islamic state. These groups want to take over the perceived-to-be-moderate governments of the region, radicalize the populations and have a dominant presence, throughout the Middle East and parts of Europe. I mean, it is real, and it is a serious challenge to us.

    Bush says, "They hate our freedoms and resent our democracy." Do you think their motives are so simple?

    I think it's more complicated than that. There is a lot about us they don't like, but they believe that these moderate regimes in the Middle East have sold out. They are attacking the Saudi royal family, as they are attacking Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and King Abdullah of Jordan, because those leaders deal with the West and have a sense of engagement in the world.

    There is also power involved. They're preaching a very different kind of power - through the madrasas and otherwise - to populations that are impoverished and uneducated, and disenfranchised in their countries. And they're offering them someone to hate.

    Do you think it's directed at the United States?

    It is now. Look, there's no negotiating with these guys. They don't hold territory; they don't have a kingdom; they don't have a government; they don't have a guiding philosophy - they just hate. They hate what they are not. And they want everything to be what they are, and they want that kind of control.

    They certainly view their struggle as a holy war. Do you think the White House does, as well?

    You have to ask the White House. But, certainly, George Bush has described it like that, occasionally.

    As a war between two fundamentalisms?

    I think you're looking at a war right now against people who attacked the United States of America. And it is appropriate, and was appropriate, for us to invade Afghanistan and to go after Al Qaeda, and I'm glad we did. What I regret is that George Bush didn't do the job. When he had Osama bin Laden cornered in the mountains, he didn't do what was available to him - which was use the best-trained military in the world to go after bin Laden and kill him or capture him. He turned to Afghan warlords and outsourced the job to them. I think that was a terrible judgment by the president.

    What are the parallels between Iraq and Vietnam?

    Right now there is one parallel that's very disturbing, and that is the leadership in Washington has not told the truth to the American people. Unless this president begins to change direction, and recognize his mistakes, and get the policy right in Iraq, he could create a whole lot more parallels. But it doesn't have to be. And that's what I'm trying to offer America right now - a realistic way to get our troops home, with honor, by achieving our goals but by sharing the burden and risk.

    I am convinced that we can do that, because the rest of the world has a stake in the outcome. A failed Iraq is not in the interests of Arab states, and it's not in the interests of the European states - but they're absent from the kind of effort necessary to prevent that from happening. That's where leadership is going to be necessary.

    That's the difference that I intend to make, and that I must make - for the sake of our country. To make ourselves safe in the long term, we're going to have to rebuild relationships and re-establish American credibility. Bush's mistakes don't have to become America's misfortune for the long term, and it's my job to undo his mistakes and turn this into a success.

    If you send troops into Iraq, how will you be able to tell them they're not risking their lives for a mistake?

    Because I'm going to make it a success, 'cause we're going to win. We're going to do what we need to do to get this job done. And I'm committed to doing that - and I know how to do it. I'll put a foreign-policy team together that talks the truth to the American people.

    What do you mean when you say you know how to do it?

    I've spent thirty-five years dealing with these kinds of issues. When I came back from fighting in a war, I fought against the war here in America. As a senator, I led the fight to stop Ronald Reagan's illegal war in Central America. I helped expose Oliver North and Manuel Noriega. I've been at this for a long time. You know, I led the initial efforts to change our policy on the Philippines - which ultimately resulted in the elections, and became part of the process that helped get rid of Marcos.

    I negotiated personally with the prime minister of Cambodia, to get accountability for the killing fields of the Pol Pot regime. I've negotiated with the Vietnamese to let me and John McCain in and put American forces on the ground to resolve the POW-MIA issue. I've spent twenty years on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee; I've been chairman of the Narcotics Terrorism Subcommittee. I have five times the experience George Bush does in dealing with these issues, and I know that I can get this done.

    What is America's role in the world? What are you going to tell the world about the United States right now?

    We are going to live up to American values in our foreign policy. Rather than building a new set of nuclear weapons, like President Bush is, we're going to lead the world in containing nuclear weapons - with a whole new protocol for tracking and dealing with precursor chemicals and with nuclear fissionable materials. We're not going to wait to intervene in places like Liberia or Darfur, where another genocide is taking place.

    An America that is not just there for its own goals and ends. We're going to re-engage with our Latin American neighbors in a positive way - unlike this administration. We're going to implement the global AIDS initiative that I wrote four years ago, that this administration is still dawdling with. We're going to offer the moral leadership with respect to environmental catastrophes that are staring us in the face. We're going to go back to the table on global warming. We're going to deal with poverty and disease in the less-developed nations in a more effective way. Those things will help to bring nations to our side. That will make us more effective in the war on terror and make our country safer.

    If you're elected, what would be your number-one environmental priority?

    Number one is global warming.

    How bad do you think that is? How real?

    Very serious. The science is real.

    Do you have a time frame for dealing with it?

    Well, we can't meet the 1990 standards that we set, because we're too far beyond it now. So we're going to have to sit down with our scientists and our businesses and see what's feasible. But I intend to set America on the course of energy independence - hopefully within ten years. And we're going to accelerate our research and development into alternative and renewable fuels.

    We're going to greatly encourage the use of more fuel-efficient vehicles. We're not going to mandate them - we're going to offer people choices that make sense economically. So we're going to give a big tax credit for people who purchase a fuel-efficient vehicle.

    Al Gore says the era of the internal-combustion engine is ending. Do you see that? And how can we get beyond that?

    I wouldn't make that kind of a bold pronouncement. I respect Al Gore's work on that stuff a lot. I mean, we're going to be drilling oil and natural gas for forty or fifty years to come, at least. But I've laid out a very aggressive energy policy. We're going to move rapidly to be independent of Mideast oil and reduce our fossil-fuel base as fast as we can. I'm going to create the incentives that excite the research and development.

    We're going to create a race for the new sources of energy - whatever they may be.

    How do you face the opposition of the oil and auto companies?

    Let me tell you something: As gas prices go up, and fuel hits sixty bucks a barrel, I'm going to have a lot of allies. This does not have to be combative and confrontational. I'm going to reach out to the companies and offer them a very significant helping hand in the retooling and transformational costs.

    I want American workers working; I want American cars made in America; I want American cars to be able to be sold anywhere in the world. I want to lead the world in these technologies. So I want these companies part of the solution - not the problem. I think we can get there - I really believe that.

    How big a priority is that for you?

    Huge. Creating jobs is one of the top five priorities of my administration. First of all, make America safe, and deal with nuclear proliferation and the global confrontation. Second, we have to create jobs and be fiscally responsible - so that we're creating the framework for America to be strong at home.

    Third, we have to have a system that provides health care for all Americans, and I have a plan to do that. Fourth, we're going to have education that works for everybody - that lifts people up. Ongoing adult education - a system that works. And fifth, we're going to have an environmental policy that leaves this planet to our kids in better shape than we got it from our parents.

    That's it - that's the agenda.

    Why has environmental policy disappeared from the radar this election cycle?

    I don't think it has.

    But why do we hear so little about it?

    Well, you have Iraq blowing up on the front pages of newspapers every day. But every speech I make, wherever I go, I talk about energy independence. I've talked about energy independence every single day of this campaign.

    Will you communicate to the American people the size of the crisis we face?

    I'm doing it in the course of this campaign. I'm already talking about it - and I will as president. Look: I'm a person who has always believed that you tell people the truth and they'll make reasonable decisions. Truth is powerful.

    This administration disrespects the truth, because they have a different credo. The truth unfortunately works against their interests, because their interests are in keeping power and in making money. And so they feed the drug industry, and they feed the oil industry, and they feed the big power companies.

    And that's the difference between us. I'm fighting for the middle class - he's fighting for a tax cut for people who earn more than $200,000 a year. He won't raise the minimum wage - I'm going to raise the minimum wage. He won't give people extended unemployment benefits - I will. He cut job training - I'm going to restore job training. He's made it more expensive for kids to go to college - I'm going to raise the Pell grants and the Perkins loans. He gave the drug industry a windfall profit of $139 billion - while he was shutting down the ability of people to bring drugs in from Canada and shutting down Medicare's ability to negotiate a lower price for drugs. That's wrong - morally and economically.

    People say this is the most important election of our lifetime - do you agree?

    I believe it is. And I want your readers to stop in their tracks and consider what's at stake for them. Because not enough people connect the things they hate, or feel or want, to the power of their vote. And they've got to be willing to go out and work in these next couple of weeks.

    How do you yourself feel? What burden does it place on you?

    You know, I've been in public life all my life - with one brief exception, when I was a lawyer and started a small business. I accept the weight, but I don't feel it. I've lived out so much frustration over the last few years that this is a liberating experience for me. I feel excited by it. I feel energized by it. I welcome it. And I just want other people to understand what's at stake here.

    I mean, the next president may appoint three or four justices to the Supreme Court. The rights of Americans may be affected for the rest of our lives by what happens on November 2nd: whether or not we're going to have equal opportunity; whether we fight against discrimination; whether we're going to have equal pay for women; whether we protect women's right to choose; whether we're going to have a country in which people can grow up and live out the full measure of citizenship.

    Why do you think you'd be a good president?

    Because I'm a good executive, I'm a good leader, and I know what we have to do. I'm tough, I'm strong, I'm decisive. I know exactly what this country needs to do to move forward. All my life I've never shied away from standing up and telling people what I think, and what I think is true - and I've taken the consequences of it. I'm even hearing about what I said in 1971.

    What have you learned about yourself in this campaign?

    That the intrusiveness is greater than I thought it would be. And there are parts of me that dislike that more than I thought I would, but it's something I have to put up with in order to achieve what I want to get done. I always knew that I was tough enough to do it; I always knew there'd be tough moments and I'd be tested - because everybody is tested on the road to the presidency. But I think the intensity of it is greater than I could imagine. It is, actually, beyond description. You have to experience it to know what that is.

    How did you feel when you first saw those Swift-boat ads?

    Disappointed - a sense of bitter disappointment. That people will stoop to those depths of lying - for their personal reasons.

    Did you get angry at Bush personally?

    Look, I know politics is tough, and I don't spend a lot of time worrying about what they do to me. But I do worry, and I am angry, about what they do to the American people. That's what this race is about. It's not about me. I can take it - I don't care. I've been in worse things. I was on those boats - I got shot at. I can handle it.

    What I worry about is that they lie to America. What I worry about is that they tell the middle class, "We're giving you a tax cut," and the top one percent of America gets more than eighty percent of the rest of the people. I worry that they are unwilling to do anything about the 5 million Americans who have lost their health care.

    I worry that there are twenty-eight states in America where you can't go fishing and eat the fish, because of the quality of the water. I worry that they've gotten us into a war where young kids are dying, and they haven't done what's responsible to protect them. That's what I worry about. The rest of it is small pickings.

    You don't get angry when Bush outright lies about you?

    No, I don't get angry at it. I think it's sort of pathetic.

    Were you surprised by how the Swift-boat thing blew up?

    I was surprised that the media, even when they knew it was lies, continued to cover it and treat it as entertainment.

    Looking back, do you think you handled it correctly?

    I think so. Look, when people hold up something that's a complete and total lie, it takes a few days to show people and convince them. We did. They've been completely discredited.

    How do you stay normal during a campaign?

    Eat a hearty meal.

    How do you stay fit?

    I'm not. I'm in the worst shape I've been in in a few years. I'm not getting enough exercise.

    You were criticized for wearing a windsurfing outfit.

    It shows how pathetic and diversionary they are. They can't talk about having created jobs for America; they can't talk about giving people health care; they can't talk about having protected America and made it safer.

    Did anyone say, "Senator, you shouldn't be wearing windsurfing clothes"?

    Yeah, a few people said . . .

    And you said, Fuck it?

    You're damn right. I said, "I'm going to be who I am" - I think people care about authenticity. There are much bigger issues.

    What do you think of Karl Rove? Is he an evil genius?

    I don't know him. I've met him once. I'll tell you November 3rd.

    What do you think of the Vote for Change concerts that Bruce Springsteen organized?

    I haven't been able to go. I'm jealous of everybody who is. It's separate from us - they've done it by themselves. But I'm obviously elated. His music has been the theme song of our campaign from Day One. To have him out there is both a privilege and exciting. I hope it has an impact on the outcome.

    Who are your favorite rock & roll artists?

    Oh, gosh. I'm, you know, a huge Rolling Stones fan; Beatles fan. One of the most cherished photographs in my life is a picture of me with John Lennon - who I met back in 1971 at an anti-war rally. But I love a lot of different performers.

    Do you have a favorite Beatles song - or Stones song?

    I love "Satisfaction" and "Jumpin' Jack Flash" and "Brown Sugar." I love "Imagine" and "Yesterday."

    You're a greatest-hits kind of guy.

    My favorite album is Abbey Road. I love "Hey Jude." I also like folk music. I like some classical. I love guitar. Oh, God. I mean, you know - Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Buffett . . .

    OK - enough. Let's talk about movies quickly. Of the Vietnam movies you've seen, what's the most accurate? And your favorite?

    The most powerful Vietnam movie, to me, was The Deer Hunter, which was more about what happened to the folks who went, and about their relationships . . . and about what happened to this small-town community. I thought it was a brilliant movie, because the metaphor of Russian roulette was an incredible way of capturing the fatalism about it all: the sense that things were out of your control. And it really talked to what happened to the folks who went. So I thought it was a very, very powerful movie. Also, Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, Coming Home, Born on the Fourth of July - those are powerful too.

    How about Apocalypse Now? Was that what it was like going up river, on those boats?

    That's exactly how it was, man. Sitting in that river, waiting for someone to shoot you - but the later part of the movie, after the point where they get to the bridge, then everything becomes a little psychedelic. That got a little distant from me.

    Finally, if you were to look back over eight years of a Kerry presidency, what would you hope would be said about it?

    That it always told the truth to the American people, that it always fought for average folks. And that we raised the quality of life in America and made America safer. I want to be the president who gets health care done for Americans. I want to be the president who helps to fix our schools and end this separate-and-unequal school system we have in America. And I want to be the president who re-establishes America's reputation in the world - which is part of making us safer. There's a huge opportunity here to really lift our country up, and that's what I want to do.

    (Found @ http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/102204E.shtml)

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  • Molly Ivins: ‘Clueless People Love Bush’


  • Molly Ivins: 'Clueless people love Bush'
    Posted on Wednesday, October 27 @ 10:17:45 EDT

    Studies show Bush supporters are misled on Bush policies and the news

    Molly Ivins, Working For Change

    ST. LOUIS -- Oh, you sweet, innocent, carefree citizens in non-swing states. You have no idea how much fun and slime you are missing.

    In the swingers, wolves stalk us mercilessly (as the pro-wolf lobby points out indignantly, no one has ever been killed by wolves on U.S. soil, but try arguing that in the face of the relentless new TV ad campaign). Breaking news everywhere -- 380 tons of high explosives in Iraq left unattended, stock market down to year's low, leading economic indicators down, more tragedy in Iraq, the Swift Boat Liars are back, more Halliburton scandal, George Tenet says the war in Iraq is "wrong" -- it feels like you're dodging meteorites here in the Final Days.

    Actually, the best evidence suggests we need to slow way down and go way back, because far from being able to take in anything new, it turns out many of our fellow citizens, especially Bush supporters, are stuck like bugs in amber in some early misperceptions that have never been cleared up.



    It seems the majority of Bush supporters, according to recent polls, still believe Saddam Hussein had ties to Al Qaeda and even to 9-11, and that the United States found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Many of you are asking how that could possibly be, since everybody knows...

    But everybody doesn't know. There it is. And if you are wondering why everybody doesn't know, you can either blame it on the media, always a shrewd move, or take notice that the administration is STILL spreading this same misinformation.

    Both Donald Rumsfeld and Bush have publicly acknowledged there is no evidence of any links between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. However, as Dick Cheney campaigns, a standard part of his stump speech is the accusation that Saddam Hussein "had a relationship" with Al Qaeda or "has long-established ties to Al Qaeda." He makes this claim up to the present day. The 9-11 Commission, however, found that there was "no collaborative relationship" between the two.

    Cheney, of course, also has never given up his touching faith that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, recently referring to a "nuclear" program that had in fact been abandoned shortly after the first Gulf War. Bush and Cheney misled the country into war using these two false premises, and it turns out an enormous number of our fellow citizens still believe both of them to be true. It's not because they're stupid, but because an administration they trust is still telling them both phony propositions are true.

    Normally, when you get a situation like that -- where people are simply not acknowledging reality -- it is considered a cult, a form of groupthink based on irrational beliefs propagated by what is normally a charismatic leader. So those Kerry volunteers earnestly engaging Bush supporters on the latest outrage are way off base. They need to go all the way back to the Two Great Lies that got us into this: Many American soldiers marching into Iraq believed it was "payback for 9-11."

    A third slightly blinding fact (to me) is that more people now think Kerry behaved shamefully in regards to Vietnam than did W. Bush. Incredible what brazen lying will do, isn't it?

    A friend of Bush's dad got him into the "champagne unit" of the Texas Air National Guard, a unit packed with the sons of the privileged trying to stay out of Vietnam, and he failed to complete his service there. Kerry is a genuine, bona fide war hero. The men who served on his boat are supporting him for president, but those who didn't serve with him, who weren't there, who don't know what happened, have been given more credence. Wolves will get you!

    In further unhappy evidence of how ill-informed the American people are (blame the media), the Program on International Policy Attitudes found Bush supporters consistently ill-informed about Bush's stands on the issues (Kerry-ans, by contrast, are overwhelmingly right about his positions). Eighty-seven percent of Bush supporters think he favors putting labor and environmental standards into international trade agreements. Eighty percent of Bush supporters believe Bush wants to participate in the treaty banning landmines. Seventy-six percent of Bush supporters believe Bush wants to participate in the treaty banning nuclear weapons testing. Sixty-two percent believe Bush would participate in the International Criminal Court. Sixty-one percent believe Bush wants to participate in the Kyoto Treaty on global warming. Fifty-three percent does not believe Bush is building a missile defense system, a.k.a. "Star Wars."

    The only two Bush stands the majority of his supporters got right were on increasing defense spending and who should write the new Iraqi constitution.

    Kerry supporters, by contrast, know their man on seven out of eight issues, with only 43 percent understanding he wants to keep defense spending the same but change how the money is spent, and 57 percent believing he wants to up it.

    So what's going on here? I do not think Kerry people are smarter than Bush people, so why are they better-informed? Maybe a small percentage of ideological right-wingers don't believe anything the Establishment media say, but I don't think this is a matter of not believing what they hear, but of not hearing what's factual.

    The great triumph of the political right in this country has been the creation of a network of alternative media. There are people who listen to Rush Limbaugh for more hours every day than the Branch Davidians listened to David Koresh. Watch Fox News, read The Washington Times -- hey, that's what the Bush administration does, according to its own words.

    But it's not just the right-wing media purveying lies -- they are quoting the administration. These misimpressions come directly from the Bush administration, still, over and over.

    Molly Ivins is the former editor of the liberal monthly The Texas Observer. She is the bestselling author of several books including Who Let the Dogs In?

    © 2004 Working Assets.

    Reprinted from Working For Change:
    http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=17962

    **************************************************************

    …Bushisms – pt 4…
    (Bushisms, continued, part 4)
    Bushisms from 2001
    "But all in all, it's been a fabulous year for Laura and me." —George W. Bush, summing up his first year in office, Washington, D.C., Dec. 20, 2001

    "I couldn't imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding the joy of Hanukkah." —George W. Bush, at a White House Menorah lighting ceremony, Washington, D.C., Dec. 10, 2001

    "We need to counter the shockwave of the evildoer by having individual rate cuts accelerated and by thinking about tax rebates." —George W. Bush, Oct. 4, 2001

    "I am here to make an announcement that this Thursday, ticket counters and airplanes will fly out of Ronald Reagan Airport." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Oct. 3, 2001

    "We are fully committed to working with both sides to bring the level of terror down to an acceptable level for both." —George W. Bush, after a meeting with congressional leaders, Washington, D.C., Oct. 2, 2001

    "The folks who conducted to act on our country on September 11th made a big mistake. They underestimated America. They underestimated our resolve, our determination, our love for freedom. They misunderestimated the fact that we love a neighbor in need. They misunderestimated the compassion of our country. I think they misunderestimated the will and determination of the Commander-in-Chief, too." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Sept. 26, 2001

    "When I take action, I'm not going to fire a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt. It's going to be decisive." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C. Sept. 19, 2001

    "The suicide bombings have increased. There's too many of them." —George W. Bush, Albuquerque, N.M., Aug. 15, 2001

    "One of the interesting initiatives we've taken in Washington, D.C., is we've got these vampire-busting devices. A vampire is a — a cell deal you can plug in the wall to charge your cell phone." —George W. Bush, Denver, Aug. 14, 2001

    "There's a lot of people in the Middle East who are desirous to get into the Mitchell process. And — but first things first. The — these terrorist acts and, you know, the responses have got to end in order for us to get the framework — the groundwork — not framework, the groundwork to discuss a framework for peace, to lay the—all right." —George W. Bush, referring to former Sen. George Mitchell's report on Middle East peace, Crawford, Texas, Aug. 13, 2001

    "My administration has been calling upon all the leaders in the — in the Middle East to do everything they can to stop the violence, to tell the different parties involved that peace will never happen." —George W. Bush, Crawford, Texas, Aug, 13, 2001

    "A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it." —George W. Bush, July 27, 2001

    "You saw the president yesterday. I thought he was very forward-leaning, as they say in diplomatic nuanced circles." —Goerge W. Bush, referring to his meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin, July 23, 2001

    "I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe — I believe what I believe is right." —George W. Bush, in Rome, July 22, 2001

    "It is white." —George W. Bush, asked by a child in Britain what the White House was like, July 19, 2001

    "It's my honor to speak to you as the leader of your country. And the great thing about America is you don't have to listen unless you want to." —George W. Bush, speaking to recently sworn in immigrants on Ellis Island, July 10, 2001

    "Well, it's an unimaginable honor to be the president during the Fourth of July of this country. It means what these words say, for starters. The great inalienable rights of our country. We're blessed with such values in America. And I — it's — I'm a proud man to be the nation based upon such wonderful values." —George W. Bush, visiting the Jefferson Memorial, Washington, D.C., July 2, 2001

    "I want to thank you for coming to the White House to give me an opportunity to urge you to work with these five senators and three congressmen, to work hard to get this trade promotion authority moving. The power that be, well most of the power that be, sits right here."—George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., June 18, 2001

    "We spent a lot of time talking about Africa, as we should. Africa is a nation that suffers from incredible disease." —George W. Bush, at a news conference in Europe, June 14, 2001

    "It's amazing I won. I was running against peace, prosperity, and incumbency." —George W. Bush, June 14, 2001, speaking to Swedish Prime Minister Goran Perrson, unaware that a live television camera was still rolling.

    "I haven't had a chance to talk, but I'm confident we'll get a bill that I can live with if we don't." —George W. Bush, referring to the McCain-Kennedy patients' bill of rights, June 13, 2001


    "Can't living with the bill means it won't become law." —George W. Bush, referring to the McCain-Kennedy patients' bill of rights, June 13, 2001

    "Anyway, I'm so thankful, and so gracious — I'm gracious that my brother Jeb is concerned about the hemisphere as well." —George W. Bush, June 4, 2001

    "It's important for young men and women who look at the Nebraska champs to understand that quality of life is more than just blocking shots." —George W. Bush, in remarks to the University of Nebraska women's volleyball team, the 2001 national champions, May 31, 2001

    "So on behalf of a well-oiled unit of people who came together to serve something greater than themselves, congratulations." —George W. Bush, in remarks to the University of Nebraska women's volleyball team, the 2001 national champions, May 31, 2001

    "If a person doesn't have the capacity that we all want that person to have, I suspect hope is in the far distant future, if at all." —George W. Bush, May 22, 2001

    "For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it." —George W. Bush, May 14

    "There's no question that the minute I got elected, the storm clouds on the horizon were getting nearly directly overhead." —George W. Bush, May 11, 2001

    "But I also made it clear to (Vladimir Putin) that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." —George W. Bush, May 1, 2001

    "First, we would not accept a treaty that would not have been ratified, nor a treaty that I thought made sense for the country." —George W. Bush, on the Kyoto accord, April 24, 2001

    "It's very important for folks to understand that when there's more trade, there's more commerce." —George W. Bush, at the Summit of the Americas in Quebec City, April 21, 2001

    "Neither in French nor in English nor in Mexican." —George W. Bush, declining to take reporters' questions during a photo op with Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien, April 21, 2001

    "It is time to set aside the old partisan bickering and finger-pointing and name-calling that comes from freeing parents to make different choices for their children." —George W. Bush, on "parental empowerment in education," April 12, 2001

    "I think we're making progress. We understand where the power of this country lay. It lays in the hearts and souls of Americans. It must lay in our pocketbooks. It lays in the willingness for people to work hard. But as importantly, it lays in the fact that we've got citizens from all walks of life, all political parties, that are willing to say, I want to love my neighbor. I want to make somebody's life just a little bit better." —George W. Bush, April 11, 2001

    "This administration is doing everything we can to end the stalemate in an efficient way. We're making the right decisions to bring the solution to an end." —George W. Bush, April 10, 2001

    "It would be helpful if we opened up ANWR (Arctic National Wildlife Refuge). I think it's a mistake not to. And I would urge you all to travel up there and take a look at it, and you can make the determination as to how beautiful that country is." —George W. Bush, at a White House Press conference, March 29, 2001

    "I've coined new words, like, misunderstanding and Hispanically." —George W. Bush, speaking at the Radio & Television Correspondents dinner, March 29, 2001

    "A lot of times in the rhetoric, people forget the facts. And the facts are that thousands of small businesses — Hispanically owned or otherwise — pay taxes at the highest marginal rate." —George W. Bush, speaking to the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, March 19, 2001

    "But the true threats to stability and peace are these nations that are not very transparent, that hide behind the—that don't let people in to take a look and see what they're up to. They're very kind of authoritarian regimes. The true threat is whether or not one of these people decide, peak of anger, try to hold us hostage, ourselves; the Israelis, for example, to whom we'll defend, offer our defenses; the South Koreans." —George W. Bush, in a media roundtable discussion, March 13, 2001


    "I do think we need for a troop to be able to house his family. That's an important part of building morale in the military." —George W. Bush, speaking at Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida, March 12, 2001


    "I suspect that had my dad not been president, he'd be asking the same questions: How'd your meeting go with so-and-so? … How did you feel when you stood up in front of the people for the State of the Union Address—state of the budget address, whatever you call it." —George W. Bush, in an interview with the Washington Post, March 9, 2001

    "Ann and I will carry out this equivocal message to the world: Markets must be open." —George W. Bush, at the swearing-in ceremony for Secretary of Agriculture Ann Veneman, March 2, 2001


    "My pan plays down an unprecedented amount of our national debt." —George W. Bush, in his budget address to Congress, Feb. 27, 2001

    "I have said that the sanction regime is like Swiss cheese — that meant that they weren't very effective." —George W. Bush, during a White House press conference, Feb. 22, 2001

    "You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test.'' —George W. Bush, Feb. 21, 2001

    "It's good to see so many friends here in the Rose Garden. This is our first event in this beautiful spot, and it's appropriate we talk about policy that will affect people's lives in a positive way in such a beautiful, beautiful part of our national — really, our national park system, my guess is you would want to call it."—George W. Bush, Feb. 8, 2001

    "We're concerned about AIDS inside our White House — make no mistake about it." —George W. Bush, Feb. 7, 2001

    "There's no such thing as legacies. At least, there is a legacy, but I'll never see it." —George W. Bush, speaking to Catholic leaders at the White House, Jan. 31, 2001

    "I appreciate that question because I, in the state of Texas, had heard a lot of discussion about a faith-based initiative eroding the important bridge between church and state." —George W. Bush, speaking to reporters, Washington, D.C., Jan. 29, 2001

    "I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but for predecessors as well." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 29, 2001

    "Then I went for a run with the other dog and just walked. And I started thinking about a lot of things. I was able to — I can't remember what it was. Oh, the inaugural speech, started thinking through that." —George W. Bush, in a pre-inaugural interview with U.S. News & World Report

    "Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment." —George W. Bush, Jan. 14, 2001


    "I'm hopeful. I know there is a lot of ambition in Washington, obviously. But I hope the ambitious realize that they are more likely to succeed with success as opposed to failure." —George W. Bush, Jan. 18, 2001

    "The California crunch really is the result of not enough power-generating plants and then not enough power to power the power of generating plants." —George W. Bush, Jan. 14, 2001

    "If he's — the inference is that somehow he thinks slavery is a — is a noble institution I would — I would strongly reject that assumption — that John Ashcroft is a open-minded, inclusive person."—George W. Bush, Jan. 14, 2001

    "She's just trying to make sure Anthony gets a good meal — Antonio." —George W. Bush, on Laura Bush inviting Justice Antonin Scalia to dinner at the White House, Jan. 14, 2001

    "I want it to be said that the Bush administration was a results-oriented administration, because I believe the results of focusing our attention and energy on teaching children to read and having an education system that's responsive to the child and to the parents, as opposed to mired in a system that refuses to change, will make America what we want it to be — a more literate country and a hopefuller country." —George W. Bush, Jan. 11, 2001

    "It'll be hard to articulate." —George W. Bush, anticipating how he'll feel upon assuming the presidency, Jan. 2001

    "I do remain confident in Linda. She'll make a fine labor secretary. From what I've read in the press accounts, she's perfectly qualified." —George W. Bush, commenting on Linda Chavez, Jan. 8, 2001

    "I mean, these good folks are revolutionizing how businesses conduct their business. And, like them, I am very optimistic about our position in the world and about its influence on the United States. We're concerned about the short-term economic news, but long-term I'm optimistic. And so, I hope investors, you know—secondly, I hope investors hold investments for periods of time — that I've always found the best investments are those that you salt away based on economics." —George W. Bush, Austin, Texas, Jan. 4, 2001

    "The person who runs FEMA is someone who must have the trust of the president. Because the person who runs FEMA is the first voice, often times, of someone whose life has been turned upside down hears from." —George W. Bush, Austin, Texas, Jan. 4, 2001

    ********************************************************

  • Déjà vu in Florida


  • Deja vu as Florida struggles to hold pristine election
    Opinion polls show Bush, Kerry in dead heat
    Thursday, October 28, 2004 Posted: 8:42 PM EDT (0042 GMT)
    MIAMI (Reuters) -- Lawsuits, missing absentee ballots and accusations of bias -- from afar Tuesday's presidential election in Florida already looks like the Third World-style fiasco of 2000 that everyone wanted to avoid.
    But election officials in the state run by President Bush's brother insist a massive turnout for early, pre-Election Day voting and a growing capacity to deal with lengthy queues show that Florida will get it right.
    That view is partly shared by the Florida Democratic Party, even as it pursues five lawsuits against the Republican state government.
    "(Gov.) Jeb Bush and his administration had four years to fix the problems and there's still problems out there," said Florida Democratic Party spokeswoman Allie Merzer.
    Yet she added, "We are cautiously optimistic ... We're really hoping to just turn out the vote in such a large number, with such a large margin, that it's not an issue."
    Reflecting strong international interest in avoiding another 2000, a group of international election monitors said it has made repeated requests to observe polling in Miami-Dade and Broward counties, two counties where ballots were most disputed four years ago. They have not responded but Leon county has agreed to grant access.
    Opinion polls show Bush and Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry locked in a dead heat in a state that could again be crucial to clinching the presidency.
    Four years ago, Florida became a laughing stock when the race was so close it generated an avalanche of lawsuits and five weeks of recounts. The U.S. Supreme Court finally halted the recounts and Bush took the White House after winning Florida by 537 votes.
    The discredited punch card ballots that lay at the heart of the disputed 2000 election have been replaced in 15 counties by touchscreen voting machines and just over half the state's 10.3 million voters will cast ballots that way. The other 52 counties will use optical scanners to read paper ballots.
    Critics say the new system is still not foolproof.
    No paper recount
    In particular, the state's decision not to ensure there would be a paper trail through which to recount votes cast on touchscreen systems has alarmed democracy advocates.
    A court struck down a state law banning manual recounts in touchscreen counties, and Florida Secretary of State Glenda Hood had to produce an emergency order to settle the issue.
    Unfortunately, said the American Civil Liberties Union, nothing in Hood's order actually allows for a recount.
    "If there are malfunctions, or tampering, in this election, we may never know," the ACLU's attorneys wrote to Hood.
    The machines are the least of some peoples' worries.
    Civic groups have launched lawsuits against a range of policies they say disenfranchise thousands of Floridians.
    Complaints cover issues from voters being disqualified because they forgot to tick a citizenship box on their registration cards, even though they signed an oath that they are U.S. citizens, to a controversial list of felons banned from voting, which the state ended up abandoning.
    Missing absentee ballots
    In Democrat-leaning Broward County, by the coastal city of Fort Lauderdale, fears eased that 60,000 absentee ballots never reached voters as the forms began to arrive. But officials say they will still have to send 15,000 replacement ballots.
    Florida's interpretation of a new federal law designed to improve voter access by creating provisional ballots for voters whose status is questioned has also come under fire. Like many states, Florida allows voters to use provisional ballots only if they are in the correct precinct, but many voters may resort to a provisional vote precisely because they do not know which precinct they should be in.
    In addition, state police are investigating scores of allegations of fraudulent voter registrations.
    "I wouldn't be surprised frankly if we even wind up with the registration of dead people," said Tom Berlinger, spokesman for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
    Pressure groups shied away from commenting on whether lawsuits could again delay the election result, a prospect financial analysts say they find increasingly unsettling.
    "We've been trying to clear the path for some time, trying to remove barriers before the election so we would not be involved in post-litigation," said Edward Hailes, senior attorney of racial advocacy group the Advancement Project.
    Gov. Bush has accused Democrats of using lawsuits to lay a basis for disputing the result if Kerry loses.
    And election officials -- including those from Democrat strongholds -- point to high turnouts for early voting, and a growing ability to cope, as proof the doomsayers are wrong.
    In Miami-Dade County and neighboring Broward, officials expect 20 percent of the electorate to have cast votes through absentee ballots or early voting before Election Day.
    That enthusiasm in turn has raised fears of endless queues that could deter voters. But officials shrug off concerns.
    "People wait in line for an hour at Disney World to go on a roller coaster, you know," said Miami-Dade elections spokesman Seth Kaplan.

    (Found @ http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/28/campaign.florida.reut/index.html)

    Thursday, October 28, 2004

    ...Shark, this is, in turn, for you; address to the Council...

    Shark: Ahh, gotta love the censorship. I, as an administrator, have never removed anyone's comments or posts, nor have I ever stated or threatened to do so; and I would not, even if said posts and comments held first names, last names, or personal info (in these cases, I would simply modify the posts and either put ***** in their place or omit the names in place of monikers.) In fact, the ONLY time I will EVER use the power of admin status to delete posts will be to remove my OWN. However, you DO have the ability to delete my posts, and even excise my person from the Council. Therefore, I concede to your idea/request, however I do find the method in which you communicated it to me rather pissy. And by the way, why would you think I could 'call you' anything for posting such a request? Actually, just fyi, I would have conceded to such a reasonable request/idea if you had asked nicely or emailed said request, before airing it on the Council in a slightly hostile tone.

    Council Members: I find Shark's request to be completely reasonable, albeit delivered in a less-than-passive manner. From now on, I will have ONLY one political-type post per day. If I have two or three diatribes that I feel are post-worthy, I will post them together, separated by lines or whatnot. All of this, per Shark's very reasonable idea.

    *UPDATE* Also, for those who might, please do not attack Shark about this. What he does he does with the good of the rest of the Council in mind (even if it was handled less-than-correctly).

    This may/may not come as a shock to those who view me as a controlling, domineering, and overall unfair person. I'm not saying anyone HERE on this COUNCIL is that kind of person, I'm just saying.

    Hey Quill this is for you!

    As of now I am limiting you to one political blog a day.If you need to post more than one then you will have to attach it to the pre existing blog of that day.I will be monitoring the site and will erase the extra political blogs as I see fit.This is to be fair to all of the council who do not want the site to be taken over by politics.Say what you will,call me what ever names you want but enough is enough.

    ...feelings, nothing more than feelings of love (horrible song reference)...

    We're all people of vast experiences and hardships. We've all had these. Do you think feelings about things and issues really ever leave us? For example, when a loved one dies; that doesn't really go away. Or, for an ond love; feelings for that, if they were true feelings and not just infatuation, never truly leave you either. Smells, sounds, songs...these things remind us of things and stir up emotions and feelings.

    Is it a bank of emotion that we carry, ever building upon it? Do these feelings every really fade away into oblivion? And, if so, would we want to lose them like that?

    ...why are horror/monster/thriller movies so popular?...

    I often wonder, just why horror movies are so popular. Most people I know are terrified of these movies. Others, like me, think they rock and are fun. But for the people that are frightened by these films, why do it? What is the thrill of having nightmares, being afraid? What primal need for that drives them? I mean, it's slightly masochistic when you think about it...

    What do you guys think?

    (And for those of you who LOVE horror films, I have hyperlinked the title of this post to one of the Web's best horror news sites, Bloody-Disgusting! Click and have fun, fellow Council members!)

    After Terror - A Secret Re-Writing of Military Law

  • After Terror - A Secret Re-Writing of Military Law


  • (NOTE: I am aware that you guys don't like the articles. You don't have to read them at all. To your right, you will see a hyperlink for every post anyone makes on the Council. You can browse the Council that way, clicking from link to link, instead of scrolling through all MY stuff. I keep to my promise that after Nov. 2, no more election stuff. Although THIS article is more about the war, and is not intended to focus on the election.)

    After Terror, a Secret Rewriting of Military Law
    By Tim Golden
    The Lakeland Ledger

    Sunday 24 October 2004

    Washington - In early November 2001, with Americans still staggered by the Sept. 11 attacks, a small group of White House officials worked in great secrecy to devise a new system of justice for the new war they had declared on terrorism.

    Determined to deal aggressively with the terrorists they expected to capture, the officials bypassed the federal courts and their constitutional guarantees, giving the military the authority to detain foreign suspects indefinitely and prosecute them in tribunals not used since World War II.

    The plan was considered so sensitive that senior White House officials kept its final details hidden from the president's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, and the secretary of state, Colin L. Powell, officials said. It was so urgent, some of those involved said, that they hardly thought of consulting Congress.

    White House officials said their use of extraordinary powers would allow the Pentagon to collect crucial intelligence and mete out swift, unmerciful justice. "We think it guarantees that we'll have the kind of treatment of these individuals that we believe they deserve," said Vice President Dick Cheney, who was a driving force behind the policy.

    But three years later, not a single terrorist has been prosecuted. Of the roughly 560 men being held at the United States naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, only 4 have been formally charged. Preliminary hearings for those suspects brought such a barrage of procedural challenges and public criticism that verdicts could still be months away. And since a Supreme Court decision in June that gave the detainees the right to challenge their imprisonment in federal court, the Pentagon has stepped up efforts to send home hundreds of men whom it once branded as dangerous terrorists.

    "We've cleared whole forests of paper developing procedures for these tribunals, and no one has been tried yet," said Richard L. Shiffrin, who worked on the issue as the Pentagon's deputy general counsel for intelligence matters. "They just ended up in this Kafkaesque sort of purgatory."

    The story of how Guantánamo and the new military justice system became an intractable legacy of Sept. 11 has been largely hidden from public view.

    But extensive interviews with current and former officials and a review of confidential documents reveal that the legal strategy took shape as the ambition of a small core of conservative administration officials whose political influence and bureaucratic skill gave them remarkable power in the aftermath of the attacks.

    The strategy became a source of sharp conflict within the Bush administration, eventually pitting the highest-profile cabinet secretaries - including Ms. Rice and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld - against one another over issues of due process, intelligence-gathering and international law.

    In fact, many officials contend, some of the most serious problems with the military justice system are rooted in the secretive and contentious process from which it emerged.

    Military lawyers were largely excluded from that process in the days after Sept. 11. They have since waged a long struggle to ensure that terrorist prosecutions meet what they say are basic standards of fairness. Uniformed lawyers now assigned to defend Guantánamo detainees have become among the most forceful critics of the Pentagon's own system.

    Foreign policy officials voiced concerns about the legal and diplomatic ramifications, but had little influence. Increasingly, the administration's plan has come under criticism even from close allies, complicating efforts to transfer scores of Guantánamo prisoners back to their home governments.

    To the policy's architects, the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon represented a stinging challenge to American power and an imperative to consider measures that might have been unimaginable in less threatening times. Yet some officials said the strategy was also shaped by longstanding political agendas that had relatively little to do with fighting terrorism.

    The administration's claim of authority to set up military commissions, as the tribunals are formally known, was guided by a desire to strengthen executive power, officials said. Its legal approach, including the decision not to apply the Geneva Conventions, reflected the determination of some influential officials to halt what they viewed as the United States' reflexive submission to international law.

    In devising the new system, many officials said they had Osama bin Laden and other leaders of Al Qaeda in mind. But in picking through the hundreds of detainees at Guantánamo Bay, military investigators have struggled to find more than a dozen they can tie directly to significant terrorist acts, officials said. While important Qaeda figures have been captured and held by the C.I.A., administration officials said they were reluctant to bring those prisoners before tribunals they still consider unreliable.

    Some administration officials involved in the policy declined to be interviewed, or would do so only on the condition they not be identified. Others defended it strongly, saying the administration had a responsibility to consider extraordinary measures to protect the country from a terrifying enemy.

    "Everybody who was involved in this process had, in my mind, a white hat on," Timothy E. Flanigan, the former deputy White House counsel, said in an interview. "They were not out to be cowboys or create a radical new legal regime. What they wanted to do was to use existing legal models to assist in the process of saving lives, to get information. And the war on terror is all about information."

    As the policy has faltered, other current and former officials have criticized it on pragmatic grounds, arguing that many of the problems could have been avoided. But some of the criticism also has a moral tone.

    "What several of us were concerned about was due process," said John A. Gordon, a retired Air Force general and former deputy C.I.A. director who served as both the senior counterterrorism official and homeland security adviser on President Bush's National Security Council staff. "There was great concern that we were setting up a process that was contrary to our own ideals."

    An Aggressive Approach

    The administration's legal approach to terrorism began to emerge in the first turbulent days after Sept. 11, as the officials in charge of key agencies exhorted their aides to confront Al Qaeda's threat with bold imagination.

    "Legally, the watchword became 'forward-leaning,' " said a former associate White House counsel, Bradford Berenson, "by which everybody meant: 'We want to be aggressive. We want to take risks.' "

    That challenge resounded among young lawyers who were settling into important posts at the White House, the Justice Department and other agencies. Many of them were members of the Federalist Society, a conservative legal fraternity. Some had clerked for Supreme Court justices, Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia in particular. A striking number had clerked for a prominent Reagan appointee, Lawrence H. Silberman of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit.

    One young lawyer recalled looking around the room during a meeting with Attorney General John Ashcroft. "Of 10 people, 7 of us were former Silberman clerks," he said.

    Mr. Berenson, then 36, had been consumed with the nomination of federal judges until he was suddenly reassigned to terrorism issues and thrown into intense, 15-hour workdays, filled with competing urgencies and intermittent new alerts.

    "All of a sudden, the curtain was lifted on this incredibly frightening world," he said. "You were spending every day looking at the dossiers of the world's leading terrorists. There was a palpable sense of threat."

    As generals prepared for war in Afghanistan, lawyers scrambled to understand how the new campaign against terrorism could be waged within the confines of old laws.

    Mr. Flanigan was at the center of the administration's legal counteroffensive. A personable, soft-spoken father of 14 children, his easy manner sometimes belied the force of his beliefs. He had arrived at the White House after distinguishing himself as an agile legal thinker and a Republican stalwart: During the Clinton scandals, he defended the independent counsel, Kenneth W. Starr, saying he had conducted his investigation "in a moderate and appropriate fashion." In 2000, he played an important role on the Bush campaign's legal team in the Florida recount.

    In the days after the Sept. 11 attacks, Mr. Flanigan sought advice from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel on "the legality of the use of military force to prevent or deter terrorist activity inside the United States," according to a previously undisclosed department memorandum that was reviewed by The New York Times.

    The 20-page response came from John C. Yoo, a 34-year-old Bush appointee with a glittering résumé and a reputation as perhaps the most intellectually aggressive among a small group of legal scholars who had challenged what they saw as the United States' excessive deference to international law. On Sept. 21, 2001, Mr. Yoo wrote that the question was how the Constitution's Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure might apply if the military used "deadly force in a manner that endangered the lives of United States citizens."

    Mr. Yoo listed an inventory of possible operations: shooting down a civilian airliner hijacked by terrorists; setting up military checkpoints inside an American city; employing surveillance methods more sophisticated than those available to law enforcement; or using military forces "to raid or attack dwellings where terrorists were thought to be, despite risks that third parties could be killed or injured by exchanges of fire."

    Mr. Yoo noted that those actions could raise constitutional issues, but said that in the face of devastating terrorist attacks, "the government may be justified in taking measures which in less troubled conditions could be seen as infringements of individual liberties." If the president decided the threat justified deploying the military inside the country, he wrote, then "we think that the Fourth Amendment should be no more relevant than it would be in cases of invasion or insurrection."

    The prospect of such military action at home was mostly hypothetical at that point, but with the government taking the fight against terrorism to Afghanistan and elsewhere around the world, lawyers in the administration took the same "forward-leaning" approach to making plans for the terrorists they thought would be captured.

    The idea of using military commissions to try suspected terrorists first came to Mr. Flanigan, he said, in a phone call a couple of days after the attacks from William P. Barr, the former attorney general under whom Mr. Flanigan had served as head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel during the first Bush administration.

    Mr. Barr had first suggested the use of military tribunals a decade before, to try suspects in the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. Although the idea made little headway at the time, Mr. Barr said he reminded Mr. Flanigan that the Legal Counsel's Office had done considerable research on the question. Mr. Flanigan had an aide call for the files.

    "I thought it was a great idea," he recalled.

    Military commissions, he thought, would give the government wide latitude to hold, interrogate and prosecute the sort of suspects who might be silenced by lawyers in criminal courts. They would also put the control over prosecutions squarely in the hands of the president.

    The same ideas were taking hold in the office of Vice President Cheney, championed by his 44-year-old counsel, David S. Addington. At the time, Mr. Addington, a longtime Cheney aide with an indistinct portfolio and no real staff, was not well-known even in the government. But he would become legendary as a voraciously hard-working official with strongly conservative views, an unusually sharp pen and wide influence over military, intelligence and other matters. In a matter of months, he would make a mark as one of the most important architects of the administration's legal strategy against foreign terrorism.

    Beyond the prosecutorial benefits of military commissions, the two lawyers saw a less tangible, but perhaps equally important advantage. "From a political standpoint," Mr. Flanigan said, "it communicated the message that we were at war, that this was not going to be business as usual."

    Changing the Rules

    In fact, very little about how the tribunal policy came about resembled business as usual. For half a century, since the end of World War II, most major national-security initiatives had been forged through interagency debate. But some senior Bush administration officials felt that process placed undue power in the hands of cautious, slow-moving foreign policy bureaucrats. The sense of urgency after Sept. 11 brought that attitude to the surface.

    Little more than a week after the attacks, officials said, the White House counsel, Alberto F. Gonzales, set up an interagency group to draw up options for prosecuting terrorists. They came together with high expectations.

    "We were going to go after the people responsible for the attacks, and the operating assumption was that we would capture a significant number of Al Qaeda operatives," said Pierre-Richard Prosper, the State Department official assigned to lead the group. "We were thinking hundreds."

    Mr. Prosper, then 37, had just been sworn in as the department's ambassador-at-large for war crimes issues. As a prosecutor, he had taken on street gangs and drug Mafias and had won the first genocide conviction before the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. Even so, some administration lawyers eyed him suspiciously - as more diplomat than crime-fighter.

    Mr. Gonzales had made it clear that he wanted Mr. Prosper's group to put forward military commissions as a viable option, officials said. The group laid out three others - criminal trials, military courts-martial and tribunals with both civilian and military members, like those used for Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg.

    Representatives of the Justice Department's criminal division, which had prosecuted a string of Qaeda defendants in federal district court over the previous decade, argued that the federal courts could do the job again. The option of toughening criminal laws or adapting the courts, as several European countries had done, was discussed, but only briefly, two officials said.

    "The towers were still smoking, literally," Mr. Prosper said. "I remember asking: Can the federal courts in New York handle this? It wasn't a legal question so much as it was logistical. You had 300 Al Qaeda members, potentially. And did we want to put the judges and juries in harm's way?"

    Lawyers at the White House saw criminal courts as a minefield, several officials said.

    Much of the evidence against terror suspects would be classified intelligence that would be difficult to air in court or too sketchy to meet federal standards, the lawyers warned. Another issue was security: Was it safe to try Osama bin Laden in Manhattan, where he was facing federal charges for the 1998 bombings of American Embassies in East Africa?

    Then there was a tactical question. To act preemptively against Al Qaeda, the authorities would need information that defense lawyers and due-process rules might discourage suspects from giving up.

    Mr. Flanigan framed the choice starkly: "Are we going to go with a system that is really guaranteed to prevent us from getting information in every case or are we going to go another route?"

    Military commissions had no statutory rules of their own. In past American wars, when such tribunals had been used to carry out battlefield justice against spies, saboteurs and others accused of violating the laws of war, they had generally hewed to prevailing standards of military justice. But the advocates for commissions in the Bush administration saw no reason they could not adapt the rules, officials said. Standards of proof could be lowered. Secrecy provisions could be expanded. The death penalty could be more liberally applied.

    But some members of the interagency group saw it as more complicated. Terrorism had not been clearly established as a war crime under international law. Writing new law for a military tribunal might end up being more difficult than prosecuting terrorism cases in existing courts.

    By late October 2001, the White House lawyers had grown impatient with what they saw as the dithering of Mr. Prosper's group and what one former official called the "cold feet" of some of its members. Mr. Flanigan said he thought the government needed to move urgently in case a major terrorist linked to the attacks was apprehended.

    He gathered up the research that the Prosper group had completed on military commissions and took charge of the matter himself. Suddenly, the other options were off the table and the Prosper group was out of business.

    "Prosper is a thoughtful, gentle, process-oriented guy," the former official said. "At that time, gentle was not an adjective that anybody wanted."

    A Secretive Circle

    With the White House in charge, officials said, the planning for tribunals moved forward more quickly, and more secretly. Whole agencies were left out of the discussion. So were most of the government's experts in military and international law.

    The legal basis for the administration's approach was laid out on Nov. 6 in a confidential 35-page memorandum sent to Mr. Gonzales from Patrick F. Philbin, a deputy in the Legal Counsel's office. (Attorney General Ashcroft has refused recent Congressional requests for the document, but a copy was reviewed by The Times.)

    The memorandum's plain legalese belied its bold assertions.

    It said that the president, as commander in chief, has "inherent authority" to establish military commissions without Congressional authorization. It concluded that the Sept. 11 attacks were "plainly sufficient" to warrant applying the laws of war.

    Opening a debate that would later divide the administration, the memorandum also suggested that the White House could apply international law selectively. It stated specifically that trying terrorists under the laws of war "does not mean that terrorists will receive the protections of the Geneva Conventions or the rights that laws of war accord to lawful combatants."

    The central legal precedent cited in the memorandum was a 1942 case in which the Supreme Court upheld President Franklin D. Roosevelt's use of a military commission to try eight Nazi saboteurs who had sneaked into the United States aboard submarines. Since that ruling, revolutions had taken place in both international and military law, with the adoption of the Geneva Conventions in 1949 and the Uniform Code of Military Justice in 1951. Even so, the Justice memorandum said the 1942 ruling had "set a clear constitutional analysis" under which due process rights do not apply to military commissions.

    Roosevelt, too, created his military commission without new and explicit Congressional approval, and authorized the military to fashion its own procedural rules. He also established himself, rather than a military judge, as the "final reviewing authority" for the case.

    Mr. Addington seized on the Roosevelt precedent as a model, two people involved in the process said, despite vast differences. Roosevelt acted against enemy agents in a traditional war among nations. Mr. Bush would be asserting the same power to take on a shadowy network of adversaries with no geographic boundaries, in a conflict with no foreseeable end.

    Mr. Addington, who drafted the order with Mr. Flanigan, was particularly influential, several officials said, because he represented Mr. Cheney and brought formidable experience in national-security law to a small circle of senior officials. Mr. Addington turned down several requests for interviews and a spokesman for the vice president's office declined to comment.

    "He was probably the only one there who would know what an order would look like, what it would say," a former Justice Department official said, noting Mr. Addington's work at the Defense Department, the C.I.A., and Congressional intelligence committees. "He didn't have authority over anyone. But he's a persuasive guy."

    To many officials outside the circle, the secrecy was remarkable.

    While Mr. Ashcroft and his deputy, Larry D. Thompson, were closely consulted, the head of the Justice Department's criminal division, Michael Chertoff, who had argued for trying terror suspects in federal court, saw the military order only when it was published, officials said. Mr. Rumsfeld was kept informed of the plan mainly through his general counsel, William J. Haynes II, several Pentagon officials said.

    Many of the Pentagon's experts on military justice, uniformed lawyers who had spent their careers working on such issues, were mostly kept in the dark. "I can't tell you how compartmented things were," said retired Rear Adm. Donald J. Guter, who was then the Navy's senior military lawyer, or judge advocate general. "This was a closed administration."

    A group of experienced Army lawyers had been meeting with Mr. Haynes repeatedly on the process, but began to suspect that what they said did not resonate outside the Pentagon, several of them said.

    On Friday, Nov. 9, Defense Department officials said, Mr. Haynes called the head of the team, Col. Lawrence J. Morris, into his office to review a draft of the presidential order. He was given 30 minutes to study it but was not allowed to keep a copy or even take notes.

    The following day, the Army's judge advocate general, Maj. Gen. Thomas J. Romig, hurriedly convened a meeting of senior military lawyers to discuss a response. The group worked through the Veterans Day weekend to prepare suggestions that would have moved the tribunals closer to existing military justice. But when the final document was issued that Tuesday, it reflected none of the officers' ideas, several military officials said. "They hadn't changed a thing," one official said.

    In fact, while the military lawyers were pulling together their response, they were unaware that senior administration officials were already at the White House putting finishing touches on the plan. At a meeting that Saturday in the Roosevelt Room, Mr. Cheney led a discussion among Attorney General Ashcroft, Mr. Haynes of the Defense Department, the White House lawyers and a few other aides.

    Senior officials of the State Department and the National Security Council staff were excluded from final discussions of the policy, even at a time when they were meeting daily about Afghanistan with the officials who were drafting the order. According to two people involved in the process, Mr. Cheney advocated withholding the draft from Ms. Rice and Secretary Powell.

    When the two cabinet members found out about the military order - upon its public release - Ms. Rice was particularly angry, several senior officials said. Spokesmen for both officials declined to comment.

    Mr. Bush played only a modest role in the debate, senior administration officials said. In an initial discussion, he agreed that military commissions should be an option, the officials said. Later, Mr. Cheney discussed a draft of the order with Mr. Bush over lunch, one former official said. The president signed the three-page order on Nov. 13.

    No ceremony accompanied the signing, and the order was released to the public that day without so much as a press briefing. But its historic significance was unmistakable.

    The military could detain and prosecute any foreigner whom the president or his representative determined to have "engaged in, aided or abetted, or conspired to commit" terrorism. Echoing the Roosevelt order, the Bush document promised "free and fair" tribunals but offered few guarantees: There was no promise of public trials, no right to remain silent, no presumption of innocence. As in 1942, guilt did not necessarily have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and a death sentence could be imposed even with a divided verdict.

    Despite those similarities, some military and international lawyers were struck by the differences.

    "The Roosevelt order referred specifically to eight people, the eight Nazi saboteurs," said Mr. Shiffrin, who was then the Defense Department's deputy general counsel for intelligence matters and had studied the Nazi saboteurs' case. "Here we were putting in place a parallel system of justice for a universe of people who we had no idea about - who they would be, how many of them there would be. It was a very dramatic measure."

    Mounting Criticism

    The White House did its best to play down the drama, but criticism of the order was immediate and widespread.

    Civil libertarians and some Congressional leaders saw an attempt to supplant the criminal justice system. Critics also worried about the concentration of power: The president or his proxies would define the crimes (often after an act had been committed); set the rules for trial; and choose the judges, juries and appellate panels.

    Senator Patrick J. Leahy, the Vermont Democrat who was then chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, was among a handful of legislators who argued that the administration's plan required explicit Congressional authorization. The Congress had just passed the Patriot Act by a huge margin, and Mr. Leahy proposed authorizing military commissions, but with some important changes, including a presumption of innocence for defendants and appellate review by the Supreme Court.

    Critics seized on complaints from abroad, including an announcement from the Spanish authorities that they would not extradite some terrorist suspects to the United States if they would face the tribunals. "We are the most powerful nation on earth," Mr. Leahy said. "But in the struggle against terrorism, we don't have the option of going it alone. Would these military tribunals be worth jeopardizing the cooperation we expect and need from our allies?"

    Senators called for Mr. Rumsfeld and Mr. Ashcroft to testify about the tribunals plan. Instead, the administration sent Mr. Prosper from the State Department and Mr. Chertoff of the Justice Department - both of whom had questioned the use of commissions and were later excluded from the administration's final deliberations.

    But the Congressional opposition melted in the face of opinion polls showing strong support for the president's measures against terrorism.

    There was another reason fears were allayed. With the order signed, the Pentagon was writing rules for exactly how the commissions would be conducted, and an early draft that was leaked to the news media suggested defendants' rights would be expanded. Mr. Rumsfeld, who assembled a group of outside legal experts - including some who had worked on World War II-era tribunals - to consult on the rules, said critics' concerns would be taken into account.

    But all of the critics were not outside the administration.

    Many of the Pentagon's uniformed lawyers were angered by the implication that the military would be used to deliver "rough justice" for the terrorists. The Uniform Code of Military Justice had moved steadily into line with the due-process standards of the federal courts, and senior military lawyers were proud and protective of their system. They generally supported using commissions for terrorists, but argued that the system would not be fair without greater rights for defendants.

    "The military lawyers would from time to time remind the civilians that there was a Constitution that we had to pay attention to," said Admiral Guter, who, after retiring as the Navy judge advocate general, signed a "friend of the court" brief on behalf of plaintiffs in the Guantánamo Supreme Court case.

    Even as uniformed lawyers were given a greater role in writing rules for the commissions, they still felt out of the loop.

    In early 2002, Admiral Guter said, during a weekly lunch with Mr. Haynes and the top lawyers for the military branches, he raised the issue with Mr. Haynes directly: "We need more information."

    Mr. Haynes looked at him coldly. "No, you don't," he quoted Mr. Haynes as saying.

    Mr. Haynes declined to comment on the exchange.

    Lt. Col. William K. Lietzau, a Yale-trained Marine lawyer on Mr. Haynes's staff, often found himself in the middle. "I could see how the JAGs were frustrated that the task of setting up the commissions hadn't been delegated to them," he said, referring to the senior military lawyers. "On the other hand, I could see how some of their recommendations frustrated the leadership because they didn't always appear to embrace the paradigm shift needed to deal with terrorism."

    Some Justice Department officials also urged changes in the commission rules, current and former officials said. While Attorney General Ashcroft staunchly defended the policy in public, in a private meeting with Pentagon officials, he said some of the proposed commission rules would be seen as "draconian," two officials said.

    On nearly every issue, interviews and documents show, the harder line was staked out by White House lawyers: Mr. Addington, Mr. Gonzales and Mr. Flanigan. They opposed allowing civilian lawyers to assist the tribunal defendants, as military courts-martial permit, or allowing civilians to serve on the appellate panel that would oversee the commissions. They also opposed granting defendants a presumption of innocence.

    In the end, Mr. Rumsfeld compromised. He granted defendants a presumption of innocence and set "beyond a reasonable doubt" as a standard for proving guilt. He also allowed the defendants to hire civilian lawyers, but restricted the lawyers' access to case information. And he gave the presiding officer at a tribunal license to admit any evidence he thought might be convincing to a "reasonable person."

    One right the administration sought to deny the prisoners was the ability to appeal the legality of their detentions in federal court. The administration had done its best to decide the question when searching for a place to detain hundreds of prisoners captured in Afghanistan. Every location it seriously considered - including an American military base in Germany and islands in the South Pacific - was outside the United States and, the administration believed, beyond the reach of the federal judiciary.

    On Dec. 28, 2001, after officials settled on Guantánamo Bay, Mr. Philbin and Mr. Yoo told the Pentagon in a memorandum that it could make a "very strong" claim that prisoners there would be outside the purview of American courts. But the memorandum cautioned that a reasonable argument could also be made that Guantánamo "while not part of the sovereign territory of the United States, is within the territorial jurisdiction of a federal court." That warning would come back to haunt the administration.

    A Shift in Power

    Some of the officials who helped design the new system of justice would later explain the influence they exercised in the chaotic days after Sept. 11 as a response to a crisis. But a more enduring shift of power within the administration was taking place - one that became apparent in a decision that would have significant consequences for how terror suspects were interrogated and detained.

    At issue was whether the administration would apply the Geneva Conventions to the conflicts with Al Qaeda and the Taliban and whether those enemies would be treated as prisoners of war.

    Based on the advice of White House and Justice Department lawyers, Mr. Bush initially decided on Jan. 18, 2002, that the conventions would not apply to either conflict. But at a meeting of senior national security officials several days later, Secretary of State Powell asked him to reconsider.

    Mr. Powell agreed that the conventions did not apply to the global fight against Al Qaeda. But he said troops could be put at risk if the United States disavowed the conventions in dealing with the Taliban - the de facto government of Afghanistan. Both Mr. Rumsfeld and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard B. Myers, supported his position, Pentagon officials said.

    In a debate that included the administration's most experienced national-security officials, a voice heard belonged to Mr. Yoo, only a deputy in the Office of Legal Counsel. He cast Afghanistan as a "failed state," and said its fighters should not be considered a real army but a "militant, terrorist-like group." In a Jan. 25 memorandum, the White House counsel, Mr. Gonzales, characterized that opinion as "definitive," although it was not the final basis for the president's decision.

    The Gonzales memorandum suggested that the "new kind of war" Mr. Bush wanted to fight could hardly be reconciled with the "quaint" privileges that the Geneva Conventions gave to prisoners of war, or the "strict limitations" they imposed on interrogations.

    Military lawyers disputed the idea that applying the conventions would necessarily limit interrogators to the name, rank and serial number of their captives. "There were very good reasons not to designate the detainees as prisoners of war, but the claim that they couldn't be interrogated was not one of them," Colonel Lietzau said. Again, though, such questions were scarcely heard, officials involved in the discussions said.

    Mr. Yoo's rise reflected a different approach by the Bush administration to sensitive legal questions concerning foreign affairs, defense and intelligence.

    In past administrations, officials said, the Office of Legal Counsel usually weighed in with opinions on questions that had already been deliberated by the legal staffs of the agencies involved. Under Mr. Bush, the office frequently had a first and final say. "O.L.C. was definitely running the show legally, and John Yoo in particular," a former Pentagon lawyer said. "He's kind of fun to be around, and he has an opinion on everything. Even though he was quite young, he exercised disproportionate authority because of his personality and his strong opinions."

    Mr. Yoo's influence was amplified by friendships he developed not just with Mr. Addington and Mr. Flanigan, but also Mr. Haynes, with whom he played squash as often as three or four times a week at the Pentagon Officers Athletic Club.

    If the Geneva Conventions debate raised Mr. Yoo's stature, it had the opposite effect on lawyers at the State Department, who were later excluded from sensitive discussions on matters like the interrogation of detainees, officials from several agencies said.

    "State was cut out of a lot of this activity from February of 2002 on," one senior administration official said. "These were treaties that we were dealing with; they are meant to know about that."

    The State Department legal adviser, William H. Taft IV, was shunned by the lawyers who dominated the detainee policy, officials said. Although Mr. Taft had served as the deputy secretary of defense during the Reagan administration, more conservative colleagues whispered that he lacked the constitution to fight terrorists.

    "He was seen as ideologically squishy and suspect," a former White House official said. "People did not take him very seriously."

    Through a State Department spokesman, Richard A. Boucher, Mr. Taft declined to comment.

    The rivalries could be almost adolescent. When field trips to Guantánamo Bay were arranged for administration lawyers, the invitations were sometimes relayed last to the State Department and National Security Council, officials said, in the hope that lawyers there would not be able to go on short notice.

    It was on the first field trip, 10 days after detainees began to arrive there on Jan. 11, 2002, that White House lawyers made clear their intention to move forward quickly with military commissions.

    On the flight home, several officials said, Mr. Addington urged Mr. Gonzales to seek a blanket designation of all the detainees being sent to Guantánamo as eligible for trial under the president's order. Mr. Gonzales agreed.

    The next day, the Pentagon instructed military intelligence officers at the base to start filling out one-page forms for each detainee, describing their alleged offenses. Weeks later, Mr. Haynes issued an urgent call to the military services, asking them to submit nominations for a chief prosecutor.

    The first trials, many military and administration officials believed, were just around the corner.